Curse

Sankt Hallvard · Oct 21, 2010, 10:25 AM // 10:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

id prefer a "in a nutshell" version of the original post.

Sup Karla, here's a nutshell version the way I see it:

OP goes: "Stop bitchin bout pvp yo, it's you pvp'ers attitude that prevents fresh blood(pve) from joining the format."

And then the "pvp'ers" on this forum go: "GO BACK TO PVE LOSER!"

Case in point.

JR · Oct 21, 2010, 10:29 AM // 10:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

HA - mostly harmless elitist b******s. Move along.

First of all, how dare you.

Secondly, I read your post, and you do have a point. One very good point. Sadly it's surrounded by a lot of indiscriminate ranting, but it's there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

GW PvP is a PITA to get into, and in this dying stage most honest people who take one look at it are saying screw it and don't bother...

This is very, very true.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

...and it's all because PvPers are keeping PvP on a death spiral.

This, not so much. Let me take this opportunity to drop some knowledge on you.

Take a look at the closest comparison for competitive play: FPS games. There you have similarly sized teams, on similarly objective based maps, each controlling a character with specific tasks and goals. There's one big difference though. There's one thing that competition in Guild Wars has revolved around over the years, which you wont find in the FPS genre.

A ladder.

The ladder was the backbone of competition in Guild Wars for years. It was a constant, dominating presence that meant every match you played had to be taken seriously for the sake of your W/L ratio and rating. This was a massive problem, and is the root of our problems today. I'll try to outline the main reasons why:

1) Practice Matches
Holding practice matches (or scrimmages) against other clans is a fundamental and healthy part of competitive play and community in FPS games. It has never taken off in Guild Wars (maybe in a very minor way at the very highest tier) because of the domination of the ladder. The ELO rating system promotes grinding the ladder. Teams who can play more matches of a lesser quality have the edge on teams who can play fewer of a much greater quality. If you have your 8 players online you aren't going to waste time with practice when you can grind some rating instead. This isn't quite so true today, with ATs, but the system still isn't perfect and most of the damage was already done.

It's easy to underplay the community aspect, too. Having a culture of regularly practicing against other teams, giving them feedback, building bonds, is incredibly healthy. In Guild Wars everyone was against everyone else, all the time. It forged strong bonds within particular small groups, but not between the community as a whole. This is one of the reasons why have an incredibly crystallized PvP community; it's tiny, but very close-knit and exclusive... or I suppose you might say 'elitist'.

2) Training New Members
The crux of your post. You attributed the problem to elitism, when it isn't. For as long as winning matters, competitive players will play to win, all the time. That's a fact of life. Building a competitive game which relies on that being otherwise is silly.

What FPS games do, between tournaments, is give clans periods of time when the pressure is off. There will still be competition available (see point 1), but you can also chill out and fill half your roster with new players you want to train up for next seasons bench without worrying about tanking your ladder rank. In Guild Wars, the pressure was never off, and you could never take those risks. That is just a glaring fundamental flaw in the competitive structure.

3) Experimenting
In Guild Wars, strategies and builds always took a ridiculously long time to emerge. We jumped from trend to trend, from gimmick to gimmick, with everyone following each other for the safe option. This created an incredibly stale experience for players and (later) observers, with predictable tournament play and frustrating ladder play. As with point number 2, if you had some down time with the pressure off it would allow guilds to experiment and push the envelope. The game would develop faster, interesting strategies would be emerging all the time, and you wouldn't go onto observer mode and see every top guild running a carbon copy of the same build.

The best you could do to take the pressure off was jump on a smurf, which is why we saw guilds like iQ with many, many alts. Unfortunately this was persecuted heavily by ArenaNet due to being viewed as (and occasionally actually being) ladder manipulation.

So there you have it. You can't blame PvP players for being elitist, it's in their nature. Unfortunately, Guild Wars injected that elitism with steroids by never taking the pressure off. That is the biggest contributor to the problem you stated, by far.

You're welcome.

Artisan Archer · Oct 21, 2010, 10:31 AM // 10:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sankt Hallvard

Sup Karla, here's a nutshell version the way I see it:

OP goes: "Stop bitchin bout pvp yo, it's you pvp'ers attitude that prevents fresh blood(pve) from joining the format."

And then the "pvp'ers" on this forum go: "GO BACK TO PVE LOSER!"

Case in point.

You missed the point.

The "pvp'ers" on this forum explain that they DO welcome fresh blood (gvg in crisis thread), except not the kind that OP is. A player unwilling to listen, complaining about basic things, generally immature.

Also, generalising ALL pvp'ers and all pve'ers is something you shouldn't do and completely wrong.

Artisan Archer · Oct 21, 2010, 10:41 AM // 10:41

When you go to your first music lesson and you start giving your opinion on how justin bieber is the best musician, it's very hard for people not to sigh and just give up on you right away. And if you then, after being show qualitity musicians like bach or whatever, still think justin bieber is the best evah, people will rage at you, laugh at you, say you're an idiot.
However, if you take the time to appreciate what people are showing you, maybe actually get a taste for the music they've shown you, they will welcome you with open arms. You're not expected to know who bach is when you start out (although is a big plus ofcourse), but are you required to have a humble, open state of mind.

(no insult intended towards justin bieber fans)

TLDR:

Have a humble and open state of mind when learning about something new. Even if you think you know alot about it already.

EDIT: post I referred to was deleted so might aswell delete this one?

Krill · Oct 21, 2010, 10:56 AM // 10:56

The attitude that if "if it sucks, shut it down" is exactly why TA was needlessly removed from the game. It became unbalanced because of hex buffs, smiting and foul feast. So rather than blacklist a few skills and call it good, anet created a new format that almost nobody likes and even fewer play....with blacklisted skills.

HA also took some hits with really bad metas that were created from skill buffs (hexes, palm strike, tease heroes, ether prism, dagger buffs, etc.) So a lot of people quit and now its impossible for a new player to realistically find pugs and rank up, which was quite easy when there were always unranked pugs that had a decent chance of at least winning UW.

Rushin Roulette · Oct 21, 2010, 11:08 AM // 11:08

I agree with Both threads actually. Both sides have true and wrong points in them.

I propose an experiment.

A few good top rank PvP players should play on secondary accounts with the Skill unlocks. This way they can play with all the skill and possibility they had on their main account, but not the shiny rank.

Try to get into good CA, GvG and HA PUG /guest invites without telling anyone who you actually are and that your main account has the shiny sought after title /emote that everyone is looking for. Once you get into a group. Dont take over command because you have the knowledge of the game, but let the group leader set the pace and follow the orders no matter how stupid you might think those orders might be.

If after a few Months you still love PvP and PvP players and you can show that it is easily manageable for a new player to get into Guild Wars PvP as well as get along with all the rank discrimination that abounds (you might not like that it happens if your a serious PvPer, but the reality is often different than good players like with "want to be good" players around).

Remember, the aim of the proposed experiment is not to Smurfstomp your way to the top agan, but to see the world of PvP through the eyes of your average Joe PvE player who migh tbe interrested in playing PvP, but gets turned off by bad experiences and memories fo when they did try to change format to see what it was actually like.

Follow the set rules of other PvP players;

Do what they say when, how long and how often
Dont try to influence your "betters" about more efficient ways of play
Dont critisize anything.
If anything does goes wrong, your to blame no mater who actually messed up and face the consequences of every one else in the tight knit group of PvP knowing you are to blame for the mess up.

Artisan Archer · Oct 21, 2010, 11:12 AM // 11:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rushin Roulette

I agree with Both threads actually. Both sides have true and wrong points in them.

I propose an experiment.

A few good top rank PvP players should play on secondary accounts with the Skill unlocks. This way they can play with all the skill and possibility they had on their main account, but not the shiny rank.

Try to get into good CA, GvG and HA PUG /guest invites without telling anyone who you actually are and that your main account has the shiny sought after title /emote that everyone is looking for. Once you get into a group. Dont take over command because you have the knowledge of the game, but let the group leader set the pace and follow the orders no matter how stupid you might think those orders might be.

If after a few Months you still love PvP and PvP players and you can show that it is easily manageable for a new player to get into Guild Wars PvP as well as get along with all the rank discrimination that abounds (you might not like that it happens if your a serious PvPer, but the reality is often different than good players like with "want to be good" players around).

Remember, the aim of the proposed experiment is not to Smurfstomp your way to the top agan, but to see the world of PvP through the eyes of your average Joe PvE player who migh tbe interrested in playing PvP, but gets turned off by bad experiences and memories fo when they did try to change format to see what it was actually like.

Follow the set rules of other PvP players;

Do what they say when, how long and how often
Dont try to influence your "betters" about more efficient ways of play
Dont critisize anything.
If anything does goes wrong, your to blame no mater who actually messed up and face the consequences of every one else in the tight knit group of PvP knowing you are to blame for the mess up.

Unless you purposefully play bad, people will notice after 1 or 2 matches. Also, most of the time, you don't get blamed if it wasn't your fault AT ALL.

sgtclarity · Oct 21, 2010, 11:25 AM // 11:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

First of all, how dare you.

Secondly, I read your post, and you do have a point. One very good point. Sadly it's surrounded by a lot of indiscriminate ranting, but it's there.

This is very, very true.

This, not so much. Let me take this opportunity to drop some knowledge on you.

Take a look at the closest comparison for competitive play: FPS games. There you have similarly sized teams, on similarly objective based maps, each controlling a character with specific tasks and goals. There's one big difference though. There's one thing that competition in Guild Wars has revolved around over the years, which you wont find in the FPS genre.

A ladder.

*SNIP*

You're welcome.

I do quite agree, in fact if you had not posted this I was but mere moments from saying as much myself.

Warvic · Oct 21, 2010, 02:05 PM // 14:05

you basically want to screw pvp'ers. the only players that actually like those formats. even tho it's not in a good shape right now, they do enjoy it.

and why do u want to screw them? do pve'ers get jalous or something? why can't you let those remaining pvp'ers play their favorite part of the game? do those pvp'ers bother you while you are playing your pve?

sorry but i think this is a lame thread. especially because you know that the big part of the playerbase are pve'ers, so u alrdy got those at your side.

and i'm a pve'er/pvp'er btw. someone who is lucky and enjoys both sides of the game.

Rushin Roulette · Oct 21, 2010, 02:26 PM // 14:26

I think the OP is actually not trying to screw PvPers over. Just the opposite from reading therough the post. It just seems that way due to the writing style.

He is partially saying that as the playerbase is dwindling in PvP they are being spread too far apart through out the many formats. This is resulting in very long waits to actually play PvP.

By removing a few of the less popular formats the players are actually forced to concentrate more on the remianing Arenas and can group up easier again.

Auron of Neon · Oct 21, 2010, 02:33 PM // 14:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rushin Roulette

I agree with Both threads actually. Both sides have true and wrong points in them.

I propose an experiment.

Your experiment is flawed in many ways. Firstly, you're ignoring that all PvPers went through this already. We weren't handed max rank titles, we had to grind them. We had to play our way through shitty groups with terrible attitudes to get our way up. Nobody is saying it's easy, we're just saying it's not impossible unless you quit after 5 minutes.

Secondly, you propose using good players to run this experiment. This defeats the point. Good players are recognized quickly and receive good treatment. Actually new players lack skill, familiarity with maps and mechanics, and knowledge of builds and skill choices. All of this combines into a combo package of "huge baddie" that the person wears on their forehead like a neon sign. A good player lacks said sign on his forehead, and thus would have a much better experience in PvP.

In order to receive relatively equal treatment, a good player would have to go beyond simply being a silent follower - he would have to act dumb. Load the wrong bars, fail every bodyblock, stand around with the relic/flag (or run off with it lacking team support), etc etc. Bad players are teased and ridiculed because of the mistakes they make. Rarely, you'll run into some *other* bad player who will try to take his mistakes out on you, but that's honestly not all that common.

By being skilled, good players will automatically skip the hardest step in the PvP ladder - not sucking. New players don't take the time to obs matches or read skills (or even hexes they have on them), so they basically never improve.

The second step is to play with whoever you can and broaden your friends list. This step is particularly difficult for PvErs, but not hard in the normal sense. They don't want to leave their guilds, they don't want to merge with the PvP community. They think they can be successful in HA by only doing it once every couple of weeks, and that just doesn't cut it for a competitive game.

Anyway, aside from the flaws in the experiment, it's unnecessary. We know how it feels to enter the PvP scene because each of us has had to do it. We were all nobodies, unranked scrubs trying to find our way around in the PvP world. We just didn't give up. We didn't quit and run home crying after we got teased. We manned the hell up, accepted criticism quietly and mindfully, and learned how to stop sucking so damn much at Guild Wars.

And that's all it takes.

Rushin Roulette · Oct 21, 2010, 02:54 PM // 14:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Auron of Neon

Your experiment is flawed in many ways. Firstly, you're ignoring that all PvPers went through this already. We weren't handed max rank titles, we had to grind them. We had to play our way through shitty groups with terrible attitudes to get our way up. Nobody is saying it's easy, we're just saying it's not impossible unless you quit after 5 minutes.

Secondly, you propose using good players to run this experiment. This defeats the point. Good players are recognized quickly and receive good treatment. Actually new players lack skill, familiarity with maps and mechanics, and knowledge of builds and skill choices. All of this combines into a combo package of "huge baddie" that the person wears on their forehead like a neon sign. A good player lacks said sign on his forehead, and thus would have a much better experience in PvP.

In order to receive relatively equal treatment, a good player would have to go beyond simply being a silent follower - he would have to act dumb. Load the wrong bars, fail every bodyblock, stand around with the relic/flag (or run off with it lacking team support), etc etc. Bad players are teased and ridiculed because of the mistakes they make. Rarely, you'll run into some *other* bad player who will try to take his mistakes out on you, but that's honestly not all that common.

By being skilled, good players will automatically skip the hardest step in the PvP ladder - not sucking. New players don't take the time to obs matches or read skills (or even hexes they have on them), so they basically never improve.

The second step is to play with whoever you can and broaden your friends list. This step is particularly difficult for PvErs, but not hard in the normal sense. They don't want to leave their guilds, they don't want to merge with the PvP community. They think they can be successful in HA by only doing it once every couple of weeks, and that just doesn't cut it for a competitive game.

Anyway, aside from the flaws in the experiment, it's unnecessary. We know how it feels to enter the PvP scene because each of us has had to do it. We were all nobodies, unranked scrubs trying to find our way around in the PvP world. We just didn't give up. We didn't quit and run home crying after we got teased. We manned the hell up, accepted criticism quietly and mindfully, and learned how to stop sucking so damn much at Guild Wars.

And that's all it takes.

Well, after youve had your rage at my post.

1. I dont accept that point as an excuse. Most great PvP players have been at it for ages. When they started most of the others were also unranked, so they didnt have to wade through the Rankism bullcrap that new players are having nowadays. Times have changed, comparing what happened years ago does not cut as an argument against Elitism (glf r8+ show title e-peen to join) nowadays.

2. Yes. I propose a godo player does this experiment but deos not say who he is adn doesnt hint at any particular skill. The only thign that is missing is the shiny r8+ title which many groups are expecting from others. If you beleive it or not. Even PvEers can be good at the game and can play PvP well with a little practice. But as ahs been stated multiple times in many threads.... if you dont get into the game to actually practice you cant get the skills or the title. No title = no game. Getting repeatedly pummled by good players is not an option. Loosing 50 times in a row while you are learning is no way to motivate anyone to carry on. Im not saying PvPers shoudl play badly and gove them a chance... just let go of the r8+ requirement BS and let unranked players into yoru teams and teach them the ropes from the inside. That way PvP has a chance at being revived agian.

3. Broaden your friendslist OK, but I would draw the line on being forced to leave your guild and friends just to play one part of a game. Teaming up with players is possible over the friendslist alone. Not teaching someone the roaps just because they are not in your guild is just being self centred. I was in a large HL2DM (FPS game) clan for years adn competed often. We never turned anyone down asking for help, a guest in a practice scrimage if there was apossibility or tips on how to improve their skills. in the Leages we played in it was common curtesy to help the others if we werent in a direct match in the next few days. This is what im missing completely in PVP here.

Captain Bulldozer · Oct 21, 2010, 03:46 PM // 15:46

"The light that burns twice as bright lasts half as long."

The simple, cold hard truth is that PvP is a setting where, for the average player, a lot of time and experience is required to be competitive. The more time you invest in it, the better you get as a general rule, but also the more burnt out you're likely to become, especially with the somewhat narrow selection of formats and maps. To the players who have spent a lot of time working up to the point of understanding and being good at PvP, they quite reasonably expect others to do the same. They also tend to have less respect for those that don't spend that time. Add to that the fact that for such an investment in time you'd generally want a decent sized reward and you have an explanation of why PvP players often come off as elitist to more casual players. They simply don't like to lose after such a large investment in time. I don't think anyone can realistically blame people for this attitude.

The better question is why the system is set up in such a way as to encourage this behavior. This is something the devs didn't intend, I'm sure. But the sheer complexity of the GW skill and profession base is largely responsible. It leaves very little room for casual forms of PvP. Furthermore, when a casual format exists, it is quickly corrupted or overrun by players who view it as serious business (this happened to low level arenas, T.A., Codex, etc). Again, its understandable WHY this happens, serious PvPers don't like to lose and casual formats with casual players amounts to quick and easy victories.

Still, the OP, despite all his rambling cynicism, has a point. Its not really that the PvPers are at fault for the perceived elitism, but all the same they would be better off understanding why that perception persists. Guild Wars is, overall, a game about fun. Sure, often fun means winning. But if it becomes the primary way that fun exists in the game then you've lost something. AND you push other people away with that attitude.

You must understand that for many people in GW it is NOT the case that they have no interest in PvP. It is the case that they have no interest in playing with people for whom winning has become the absolute priority. Games are played for fun, and any players that make it less fun to play the game will be avoided. Its that simple. So everyone should take a good hard look at their own behavior and how they respond to failure, both of themselves and in those around them. Its not too late for PvP to be revived, there are still many new players entering the game with interest in PvP. I say this to both hardcore PvPers and people interested in playing PvP: Don't let your own impatience get the better of you, this format can be a LOT of fun if you are there primary to have fun. Everything else causes the rifts you see in PvP.

Luckily, Anet seems to recognize these shortcomings and plans for World PvP in GW2 to be a fix to some of them. I'm optimistic about that at least.

Auron of Neon · Oct 21, 2010, 03:51 PM // 15:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rushin Roulette

Well, after youve had your rage at my post.

I didn't rage, I merely pointed out glaring flaws in your logic.

1. No, most great PvPers have quit playing Guild Wars. There are honestly probably less than ten that have been playing since release. Most (by most, I mean like 95%+) that play now started some time after release. Titles hit about the time factions did - and from then on, groups were hard to get into. Every PvPer that started playing after early 2006 has had to deal with elitism. I am one of them, and I can tell you that it isn't impossible.

2. By simply being who he is, the player will be noticed. Good players stand out. An infuser that catches every spike, a mesmer that interrupts every res sig, a warrior that hits every bulls - even without telling the world who he is, that player will be noticed, and will be treated with more respect.

Quote:

Even PvEers can be good at the game and can play PvP well with a little practice. But as ahs been stated multiple times in many threads.... if you dont get into the game to actually practice you cant get the skills or the title.

Half the battle starts before you enter the arena. Is your bar up-to-date and using the best skills? Do you know what each of the skills do? Have you used observer mode to check each map and learn where key points are? Do you notice where the frontline, midline and backline is standing in each map? If you haven't done any of this, stepping into the arena will largely be a waste of time. This is a step most PvErs miss (and a step that ANet has done nothing to help).

Quote:

Getting repeatedly pummled by good players is not an option. Loosing 50 times in a row while you are learning is no way to motivate anyone to carry on.

The point of PvP is to play to win, not to motivate the other team. If the player doesn't want to win, he isn't going to. This isn't farmville, it's PvP.

Quote:

Im not saying PvPers shoudl play badly and gove them a chance... just let go of the r8+ requirement BS and let unranked players into yoru teams and teach them the ropes from the inside.

I love this argument, because this tells me you haven't thought about the bigger picture. I'll sidetrack a bit to enlighten you, because you need to be taught.

Everybody in HA is bad. That is a given. When I am forming a (ranked) group, I am using a filter to pick between two types of players - a bad player with no experience or a bad player with some experience. Which you would pick if your goal was victory? The untested player who can't throw a bambi up or someone who has seen enough HA to at least flash a wolf at me? There is no guarantee that the r6 player will be good, but I know that he has at least won a hundred matches. He has seen the maps and experienced the mechanics. If my goal is to form a party for victory, that person is who I will pick.

You are, in essence, asking every ranked group to pretend that there is no difference in experience between players. That's... well, I'll be polite here... silly as hell. Delusional, even. Life doesn't work like that. You go to college and get a degree and find out that the best companies want several years' work experience. Are you going to tell them that's unfair? That they should take you over someone who has experience, or at least that they should ignore the difference in experience between two applicants? No way!

In HA specifically, less so in GvG, you are rewarded better for win streaks - the only way to get high ranks is to hold halls. Each consecutive match gives you more and more fame. 40 fame per win seems like a lot to someone with no rank, but for us, it's a drop in the bucket - a bucket we need lots of drops to fill. Lower tier players group with other lower tier players, and they only need a few wins (comparatively) to rank up. Higher tier players naturally want to group with higher tier players, because grouping with a bunch of bads will only get them 1 or 2 fame at a time, when they need several hundred or several thousand to get anywhere. Do you see how this isn't viable?

Quote:

That way PvP has a chance at being revived agian.

Nothing is going to revive PvP. Guild Wars is a dead game. A bad dead game. ANet has made it worse and worse over the years, and better, fresher options have come out. Guild Wars is not going to draw playerbase from SC2, League of Legends, or WoW simply with unranked people finding tombs groups easier. Forcing bads into every group will not make the arena come alive, it will only destroy any competitive aspect it has left.

3.

Quote:

I would draw the line on being forced to leave your guild and friends just to play one part of a game.

You aren't forced to do anything. Guild Wars is a video game. If you want to do well in PvP, you have to realize what it takes. If you think you can do well in PvP without changing guilds or adding people to your friend's list, you will be unranked for a very long time. (also, wtf @ leaving your friends? did anyone even say that?)

Quote:

Not teaching someone the roaps just because they are not in your guild is just being self centred.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy

Quote:

We never turned anyone down asking for help, a guest in a practice scrimage if there was apossibility or tips on how to improve their skills. in the Leages we played in it was common curtesy to help the others if we werent in a direct match in the next few days. This is what im missing completely in PVP here.

You're missing... what, exactly? Help learning the game? Someone holding your hand? This is, as JR pointed out many posts up, ANet's fault, not the playerbase's. There is no easily found in-game tutorial for anyone interested in PvP. All the information you require is in the Isle of the Nameless, but unless you know about it in advance, you're kinda hosed. It is not the duty of any single player to help out anyone else. Guild Wars is, above all else, a video game. The game needs to be designed well enough to introduce players to the PvP aspect - the burden should not be entirely on the community.

Getting back to the point, I know how hard it is to start PvP. This is mostly ArenaNet's failure at PvP game design. In 2005, PvP was the point of the game - the game didn't need tutorials because you could just follow the crowd. You are a witness to the aftermath of that system. Five years later, you are utterly lost and confused on your road to enter PvP. You wrongly attribute it to the lack of helpful players, but it is the fault of the incomplete framework that is PvP in Guild Wars.

urania · Oct 21, 2010, 05:07 PM // 17:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sankt Hallvard

Sup Karla, here's a nutshell version the way I see it:

OP goes: "Stop bitchin bout pvp yo, it's you pvp'ers attitude that prevents fresh blood(pve) from joining the format."

And then the "pvp'ers" on this forum go: "GO BACK TO PVE LOSER!"

Case in point.

so the same old stuff.

well, speaking of pve...ive had this RA gem of an ele tank (stonefelsh etc, he'd even say "im the tank, let me do my job yada yada") complain at me after i /resign and go suicide in his team.

*accidentally covered part of his message...it continues like this: dont know anything about tactics and ra".
by tactics he was clearly referring to his tanking "job".

not sure whether to laugh or face palm, but thats how most of ra has been like for years.
(i actually laughed quite hard at the time)

moreover, why do i get the feeling half of riverside forums moved over to gladiator forums all of a sudden.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Auron of Neon

Playing with people you know is the only way to ensure their skill.

/threadwin

its not the rank nor the trim, but your knowledge about one's skill level and overall competence when it comes to choosing your mates. that is, if you wanna get somewhere. sadly its just a few years too late for that.

and last but not least...WHY on earth are ppl wasting SO much time on talking about pvp now when nothing matters anymore. and not like it mattered much in the past, but damn. let it go.

Sankt Hallvard · Oct 21, 2010, 05:16 PM // 17:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Artisan Archer

You missed the point.

The "pvp'ers" on this forum explain that they DO welcome fresh blood (gvg in crisis thread), except not the kind that OP is. A player unwilling to listen, complaining about basic things, generally immature.

Also, generalising ALL pvp'ers and all pve'ers is something you shouldn't do and completely wrong.

I didn't miss any point. You are.

I made you a reply earlier but making short, concise points doesn't seem to fare well on this part of the forum.(got deleted) Therefore I shall make a long post elaborating on the nutshell version pretty much ensuring that no one will bother to read through it all and maximizing the chances of someone missing the point or quoting me out of context:

First of all it seems to me that no one has bothered to put up a definition of what a "pve'er" or a "pvp'er" really is. Me putting this in quotation marks was a way of underlining this point. Without a good definition discussions using these terms as the core values are bound to be poor.

The "pvp community" is dying(undisputable) and want fresh blood, here in the form of "pve'ers". But not just any kind of pve'er. The "pvp'ers" are "willing to teach and help" but only with people who are willing to admit how bad they are and show a willingness to learn in a hostile environment. What the OP should come to realise is that even these "pvp'ers" are human beings, they too want to have fun while playing. And let's not forget playing pvp means being competitive, dragging along bad players("pve'ers") can only work for so long before frustration kicks in and vent rage happens. This is unfortunate but also human nature. Trying to forcibly change human nature is a daunting task.

The "pve'ers" are rarely of the type that the "pvp'ers" want. They have chosen pve for a reason, at this point only a minority are new players who have never even tried pvp. Most of today's playerbase has tried pvp and found it unsatisfactory. (for various reasons I guess) Most are probably not inclined to the competitive nature that pvp requires. Again trying to change human nature is an uphill struggle.

The initial threshold to get into pvp is simply too high. This is stating facts, it's not an argument that you had to overcome this hurdle back in 2005 too. Everyone was a noob back then. I had no problems getting into pugs in HA, I remember bringing my mighty wammo with mending. If you truly do want "fresh blood" you will have to accept taking "shitty pve'ers" like the OP, people who want to get at least some wins when they start playing, people who will take a long time to improve and possibly show little interest in doing so. They want to carry their pve mindset over to pvp to stay in their "comfort zone", an expression I picked up in another thread and is quite descriptive.

So having people sitting here in two camps throwing stones at each other is pretty much retarded. Pve'ers are not willing to(in large numbers anyway) to embark on the hard struggle to pvp success. While on the other hand pvp'ers are not willing to lower their bar for entrance(considerably anyway) enough to accomodate the pve'ers. The incentives are simply not there or strong enough to attract new players.

And how someone can point at the ladder system to be the point of failure for pvp is beyond me. A system that ensures that you win about as much as you lose thus preventing mass discouragement can only be a good thing.

At this point it seems to me that the main purpose of threads like this is for people to make public that they are a "pvp'er" and bask in recognition from their peers. Implied somehow that being a "pvp'er" makes you special and superior to the "pve'er". Stop holding hands while you jerk each other off.

For others it's a way to pass time in an eternal procrastrination of real life tasks...

Errant Venture · Oct 21, 2010, 05:16 PM // 17:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

and last but not least...WHY on earth are ppl wasting SO much time on talking about pvp now when nothing matters anymore. and not like it mattered much in the past, but damn. let it go.

PvP was (is) the only moderately well designed feature in guild wars. The Guild Wars game engine was built from the ground up as a PvP game. PvE was completely unimportant until after factions launched when Arenanet realized games geared towards PvE create much more revenue than PvP-oriented games. Hence the absolute lack of attention focused on PvP since the Factions world tourney and the single-minded devotion to PvE found in GW2.

urania · Oct 21, 2010, 05:21 PM // 17:21

ok. i most certainly did not know that already.
and yet the question remains, why make a 100k word rant on something that has basicaly no meaning nor value in a game that has been left to rot away years ago.
you want pure and quality pvp? go play HoN or Conquest. its too late for GW and GW2 most certainly wont be much better off.
as for me, i sometimes play ra, rarely ab and ca, to have some lolz.
especially in ra gems like the screenie i posted are a fine laugh...occasionally.

Sankt Hallvard · Oct 21, 2010, 05:23 PM // 17:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

so the same old stuff.

Exactly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

by tactics he was clearly referring to his tanking "job".

Well (sadly) you have to admit that "tanking" often is a viable tactic in RA...

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

and last but not least...WHY on earth are ppl wasting SO much time on talking about pvp now when nothing matters anymore. and not like it mattered much in the past, but damn. let it go.

Hey, don't judge!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sankt Hallvard

For others it's a way to pass time in an eternal procrastrination of real life tasks...

urania · Oct 21, 2010, 05:29 PM // 17:29

perhaps, but not with a 3 s induction enchantment one uses infront of a ranger or rupt mesmer or kd warrior or *insert random interrupt/knockdown skill*
and as by some magic, i always get those gems of players. and its a common case that the notion of resigning is not part of their mental lexicon. :P

i have to admit you're right on the last paragraph.

moreover, i take it the only reason this thread hasnt been locked yet is the fact a moderator made it.